tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20406961.post4239076981960497765..comments2023-06-07T09:13:41.693-05:00Comments on Episcopal Chaplain On the High Ground: For Generosity to Result in Sacrifice (Updated)Marshall Scotthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02807749717320495495noreply@blogger.comBlogger9125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20406961.post-49139930786851032402008-08-14T14:03:00.000-05:002008-08-14T14:03:00.000-05:00IMNSHO there would be no problems caused by TEC in...IMNSHO there would be no problems caused by TEC in other provinces had not their clergy caused it. I'm weary of clergy-caused dissension. If TEC is excluded, so be it. In no way should it be voluntary. If TEC is excluded, so should the ACoC and all others who share the lack of prejudice. Perhaps eventually, the excluded will be the larger group as others learn to follow Jesus?PseudoPiskiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12070541512355253553noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20406961.post-44385944017195318932008-08-14T12:22:00.000-05:002008-08-14T12:22:00.000-05:00At one level, I am inclined to agree -- if anyone ...At one level, I am inclined to agree -- if <I>anyone</I> is to pay the price of the Gospel it should be the entire TEC. Sacrificing our lbgt sisters and brothers is murder (in some cases literal murder!)<BR/><BR/>But(!) I think it is fair to be somewhat skeptical of the idea that the Islamic world sees our inclusion as a basis for attack. Oh, I am sure those who hate the, "Crusaders" use any tool, but they can always find another tool: they will. In fact it is not a tool: it is an excuse. <BR/><BR/>I am not suggesting that the central Africans begin ordering gay bishops next week. I am suggesting they read Jesus' description of the judgment and get with the program. These are the least of His brothers and sisters in their diocese. Why are they not defending them?<BR/><BR/>And there is the problem. If we wont continue to witness for the oppressed, and the churches on the ground or in Canterbury certainly wont, who will? Someone must say that gang raping a lesbian is sin, African churchmen wont, the archbishop of Canterbury seems to be capable of silence. Who will speak if we are silent too?<BR/><BR/>Nope, I cannot go there. We need to be both present and vocal. The Spirit calls us to love mercy and seek justice.<BR/><BR/>FWIW<BR/>jimBJimBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17312606954135884910noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20406961.post-6013424227870274422008-08-14T10:21:00.000-05:002008-08-14T10:21:00.000-05:00Thanks for these comments.Goodness, Dr. Hudson! W...Thanks for these comments.<BR/><BR/>Goodness, Dr. Hudson! Well, I don't know about "telling everyone what's best" - but, it is my opinion.<BR/><BR/>Ann, Dr. Hudson, Malcolm+, Bill: I go back and forth about engagement, and when it's helpful and when it's not. I'm conscious of the Cuban dissidents who felt that President Bush's championing their cause made matters worse by making a <I>cause celebre</I> of resisting American "interference," and so disrupting efforts they felt were working to change their own society. We need to stand with <I>all</I> who are dying over this, and that's a difficult balance.<BR/><BR/>But, I'm not saying we should go away. We should be present, in silent witness. They will still know we stand with our GLBT siblings here, and pray for them there. Indeed, in my work sacramental presence, the opportunity to reflect the love of God as a visible symbol that God is present, was present already, is commonly more powerful than any words I might say. I don't think we'd lose that in "second tier" status, or I wouldn't have suggested it.<BR/><BR/>I also think of the family systems model that many have put forth in analyzing our differences. Well, one way to really clarify who has the problem and where is to take the "identified patient" out to pursue his or her own health. That doesn't mean the "identified patient" isn't part of the family anymore - just that the "identified patient" has chosen new and healthy behavior and no longer participates in the disruption. Once again, that becomes a quiet but powerful witness to what health and wholeness - and holiness - can mean.<BR/><BR/>OCICBW....Marshall Scotthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02807749717320495495noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20406961.post-51174521436587727242008-08-14T07:58:00.000-05:002008-08-14T07:58:00.000-05:00I think we need to live out our generosity by show...I think we need to live out our generosity by showing up when invited, maintaining our integrity and fidelity to the Gospel as we understand it, bearing witness to the truth with our brothers and sisters, and being patient when others try to exclude us. If we do what is right, we will end up on the bottom tier of a two tier process, but this tier really isn't all that different from what we think the Anglican Communion actually should be. I don't think we should voluntarily withdraw from anything. We should accept that to some, including the Archbishop of Canterbury, this step might (mistakenly) appear necessary.<BR/><BR/>At the same time, we should not attend any events where Rowan imposes a loyalty oath to the Covenant process. This was one of my objections to attending Lambeth (along with Gene's exclusion).Bill Carrollhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14743851784631753415noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20406961.post-57154603363241399352008-08-14T00:05:00.000-05:002008-08-14T00:05:00.000-05:00If "second-tier" status is imposed upon up, so be ...If "second-tier" status is imposed upon up, so be it. But to embrace it is to cede the contest of ideas to those who believe the Holy Spirit has no more to say.Malcolm+https://www.blogger.com/profile/08469936715413110334noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20406961.post-46217024921240705182008-08-13T20:15:00.000-05:002008-08-13T20:15:00.000-05:00Marshall - I was there in those earliest of days o...Marshall - I was there in those earliest of days of WTenn! as a student at Southwestern (I am revealing my age aren't I?). I've been thinking and saying much the same as what you outline here and it feels very liberating to me. I do take it one step farther, however. I think we need to be willing to sacrifice our entire connection to Canterbury, trusting that God is in all of it (even those with whom we disagree). I'm not saying that should be our starting point, but we must be prepared to relinquish the attachment if called to do so.<BR/><BR/>I continue to be reluctant to accept that TEC is somehow responsible for other Provinces. I'm not doubting their experience but I am rejecting the idea that we are somehow responsible for their context. I keep hearing a therapist teaching a married couple that neither one of them is responsible for how the other one hears them. You can't help what others do with what you say.<BR/><BR/>That said, I do believe our best response is the one that shows a way forward that preserves everyone's integrity and asks no one to be different than they already are. For me, that's true reconciliation (or at least the beginning of it).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20406961.post-3005333259620955192008-08-13T19:04:00.000-05:002008-08-13T19:04:00.000-05:00Yes, the adults know what's best for the teens, th...Yes, the adults know what's best for the teens, the men know what's best for the women, the priests know what's best for the laity, and we know what's best for the Communion.<BR/><BR/>I don't think so.<BR/><BR/>To absent myself from my family because some might take offense is to discount those family members.<BR/><BR/>Every Church in the Communion is fully capable of responding as they think best to TEC. To absent ourselves, or to make ourselves separate, is to deny the possibility of reconciliation and redemption.<BR/><BR/>Come, let us reason together.<BR/><BR/>Dr. Bryant A. HudsonAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20406961.post-80333203295231535352008-08-13T17:24:00.000-05:002008-08-13T17:24:00.000-05:00I don't agree -- in those countries where people a...I don't agree -- in those countries where people are being threatened by association -- gays and lesbians are being killed. Even in CofE - a man was killed for being gay. We all need to stand in solidarity with the least of these.Annhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07287169546184325690noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20406961.post-75789276880963339722008-08-13T17:17:00.000-05:002008-08-13T17:17:00.000-05:00Marshall - these are thoughtful reflections and ma...Marshall - these are thoughtful reflections and match with what I have been thinking. It may be that we'll have to face that the practices we choose in order to serve what we see as a gospel vision of full inclusion will give offense to others in the Communion. I think it's important to acknowledge that offense, and perhaps we haven't done so enough, thinking it won't matter to people, as you say, when it turns out that it does. But that doesn't mean we give up our practices or stop developing the theology that goes with them. This is a matter of conscience for us (it seemed to me that the Archbishop acknowledged somewhere that this might be so). I also think it means we cannot leave the table, even when conversations are painful - and if we are asked to sit further away from the head of the table, well then maybe that's the sacrifice that's asked of us in the church as it now stands- a lower "status" or "tier" -- We balk at that but that may be our witness in this generation of the Church -if some sort of "lesser status" is the price exacted for solidarity with our GLBT members and clergy then don't we need to accept it, while NOT withdrawing in anger or protest? I agree that it would be important to be clear about our theology, that we are not accepting punishment or penance, but rather accepting, with some grief, that our brothers & sisters in the Anglican communion cannot accept what we think are fundamentally gospel-based practices. <BR/>I live in a congregation that really reflects the face of the Anglican communion and a variety of opinions regarding GLBT clergy and bishops. But a lot of agreement on a lot of other things about what it means to be church. Interestingly, the congregation has had NO interest in what has been going on at Lambeth. The work of staying together and staying engaged and worshipping together is how we do church and are formed by being church. It seems to me this is a more "Anglican" vision of "being a Church" than the idea of agreement to a set of precepts ssuggested by the Archbishop's idea of being "more like a Church." Forcing agreement is more divisive than acknowledging brokenness. I find that I am grieving, more than anything else, that this issue should divide the Communion, when there is so much more to being church. But I don't think we should leave, and I doubt that we'll be "kicked out." A lot of strength and clarity is going to be required but we have to stick to the inclusive vision we have embraced, and there is a cost, sometimes, to this kind of witness.(Kathy)https://www.blogger.com/profile/12902130380750428139noreply@blogger.com